North island guide book?

There is definitely room for something along the "select" lines of Rock deLuxe or the more complete but out of date CNI Rock Guidebook.

Watch this space...

Yeah I agree, you aren't going to make any money off a guidebook to start with.. so why not add to freeclimb? There are plently of crags out there that have been lost since CNI went out of stock/publishing. 

Even 'The Bay' could use a new guide....

Well that might not be too much of an issue if a RD style Guide is produced as it is a "select" Guide surely?

The other thing is that a on line thing like Freeclimb does not produce income - South Island Rock and Canterbury Rock put a lot of money into bolting in Canterbury for example

Ooooh! I'll jump in on this one!!! Cliff Ellery is the man... but he is but A man.  He can not keep up with all the new stuff going up and it is quite a mission for one guy to redue all the existing guide info (CNI, the Bay, Welly Rock etc).  I support the idea of a rock delux style guide, though I recon it will be a full time job for a year or so if it is to be done right.  RD sells because of road trippers who want a tour guide in a book.  It covers the best stuff and gives info as to where to get more info on each area.  Despite what folks may say... they sell.  NZ is an international climbing destination and being able to buy 2 guides and have enough beta to climb for a year with out getting on a line twice would be great.

Oh... and if you leave out Mangaokewa I'll hunt you down and roast your bones over a fire!

Hang on... Brainwave.
This website used to have a crag database, now that wasn't amazingly sucsessful, but what if it was reinstated in way of an online guide. I mean all the data/topos are out there floating around on the interweb already. Surely it would just be a matter of consolidating the existing guides and getting to a server/website that sees a more regular servicing.
I'm still not sure kewa is quite ready for a 'flash new guide' because it is still very much in development stage, Ivan's xmas new-routing frenzy is testament to this. Personally I'd wait another year or so before putting in a really big effort with a kewa guide, just to let development settle down a bit.

Ok so maybe not the most ground-breaking brainwave...

A flash version of something like the Red River Gorge's online guidebook would be great--standardised grades, up-to-date safety info, new routes can be added directly by the FA...  

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuide/

It's an ugly design, I know, but it's nearly as old as mojo was.  Anyone got time and IT skills?

Interesting - both print and online have their place. For new, small, developing places online is great as its easy to do, hence someone will pick up the gauntlet/make one and they can easily be updated.

However they are unwieldy and a pain if they are more than a few pages long and poor resolution. 72 dpi online vs 300dpi for print, that’s 4 times better. Online can't compete for quality and enjoyment of reading but they perfect for new/small and rapidly changing crags.

I hope someone will be keen to do a Deluxe style guide book (where one or two people climb/collect all the info rather than compile it from different sources) for the North Island - but wait I hear a rumor...

I can imagine a time when climbers will carry around a small portable device like an i-phone to access information and topos for the routes they want to climb. I am sure that is probably happening already - no paper, no printing and no retailers. Also, online guides could have the advantage of sorting out just the grades a person wants to climb or sorting out just the crag for the day or even the topo and description for a single multi-pitch climb. Surely, the entire climbing community could cost benefit from such a system. I agree that online guides will not completely replace print guidebooks. There is intrinsic value to books.

I believe the trick is to develop a system where the proceeds from the sale of the information goes back to those groups or individuals with a vested interest in their respective areas. If there are going to be guidebooks with a national format, either select or complete, there should be a system for distributing sales revenue back into the various areas. I have no problems with paying a guidebook editor to do the work or with paying for distribution or other expenses. But, the profits should go back into the climbing community.

I think that SELECT guides are good for the travel market as these people won't buy 10 different guides, but they need to check access, and camping info more carefully as it has caused problems. Here in Queenstown access to Queenstown hill has been lost and other land owners are unhappy with the camping/ and resulting shit on their land after people wrote "seems OK to camp" on what is private farm land and attracted a lot of campers.

 I also feel sorry for the local guide if their information is copied and profits removed from the area. In theory people say they don't copy  but I have seen mistakes from one guidebook in another which would be very obvious if you climbed it like pitch grades reversed 21,19 is in book as 19, 21 so you think oh man the next pitch is going to be super hard and then it's really easy.

I believe SELECT rather than covering the whole area is much fairer so that anyone spending a bit of time in the area will buy the local guide in addition.

here's a few thoughts, in no particular order:

is selling guidebooks the best way to fund crag maintenance & development? I'm not sure, & if Ivan's figures are right (& I don't doubt them) then the answer seems to be "no". we're talking money for bolts, anchors, ensuring safety, covering liability & preventing potential death, injury & disfigurement, plus toilets, stiles paths, etc. trying to do all that by selling a bunch of photocopied pages just seems wrong to me.

when some visiting american dies cos a crappy old bolt shears, is it going to be an excuse to say well, it was like that cos they were too tight to pay for our overpriced guidebook?

sorry, that's not very constructive. i don't know what the answer is. maybe it's about getting wider community support (visting climbers benefit the local economy, so are there community trusts etc that'd help fund this stuff?) or expanding the NZAC bolting fund & seeking corporate & other donors?

point is, the number one reason for a guidebook is to provide accurate information. everything else falls into the 'nice to have' category.

Sally's comment about errors being repeated through copying other guides is a good one, but I don't think the answer is pleading with people not to "pilfer" other guides. the information is out there and the most important thing is to make sure it is correct.

i think enough people will always want printed guides to make them worthwhile (even if not profitable... though there's nothing wrong with profits, if they materialise, going back to local crags), but once again the most important thing is ensuring the content is accuate & up to date. money from a guide should go *first* into ensuring accuracy rather than funding bolting programmes/projects, IMHO, just as Kate & Ivan did with RDL.

Jon Hunt & I have been talking about building a web-based climb/crag database. the idea is that it'd be reasonably open access to contribute & also that climbers can contribute their own opinions on grades, quality, descriptions etc. (along the lines of, say, bleau.info) I think it's the best chance (other than paying Ivan to drive around the country & check) for getting accuracy. it should also, I hope, make it much easier to produce print guides based on this user-contributed information (with a print guide you are really paying for quality reproduction, topos, inspiring action shots, local/editorial knowledge, good design and information organisation/presentation and convenient packaging.)

so, for example, *if* information about Wanaka crags were online, WRCC could take it and use it as the basis for a kick arse guide to the local crags. boulderdash, you credit RDI & SRI with benefitting WRCC – but how much better would it be if WRCC also had access to a climber-built & run fact checking system?

free online access also means it's possible to avoid the whole "subscription" thing, which I think would just turn into a huge headache to collect minimal revenue that everyone would avoid by sharing logins, etc

we've started scoping out ideas around organising the data, and it'd be really good to have a few crags as, um, real world guinea pigs so we can work through potential problems in the data structure & presentation. let me know if you're interested

and like mnatti said, this ain't a thing that one person can feasibly do on their own. it's gotta be a community-run & supported project.

really keen to hear what people think...!!

rich

like some of the climbing wiki's I have seen?

Contrary to some of the discussion, the purpose of a guidebook is to make money. The economic contribution then allows for the public to benefit from the information.

Yes, a guide should be as accurate as possible. Otherwise, people will not want to buy it. But, I doubt there is guide book in existence that does not have some factual errors. That is why most guides have information disclaimers. Is it really that big a deal if there are a few minor mistakes? Who really cares?

WRCC makes significant money from guide book proceeds. Guide sales are the main source of club revenue. Thank goodness for guide sales. It has allowed our little club to accomplish a heap of good work. Without guide book proceeds, I believe the Wanaka climbing resource would be far less developed and far less quality. Don't be confused, guide book revenue is hugely important for WRCC! It is one reason we are very concerned about professional guide book writers poaching on our patch for personal gain. We have always protected our interest in the area and nothing will change that fact. We want the money to go back into the local resource, simple as that.

Actually, I am very surprised more groups in the NZ climbing community have not followed our model of creating an incorporated society to benefit the local climbing community. Maybe they have and I just don't know it. I think Queenstown is on to it. It seems like Golden Bay would be on to it. Dunedin should be on to it. Isn't Christchurch on to it? What about the North island communities? Go figure. 

No offence intended, WRCC does not have to grovel to the Alpine club or the Rotary bunch and certainly not to the rock loving Masons. It certainly may be possible to generate funds from fraternal organizations, pokie machines, trust organizations, etc. but there are all type of criteria clubs must meet in order to qualify. Generally speaking, that spells hassle. It is reasonably easy to make a good quality guide, sell it through retailers and collect the money. 

I do agree that some type of online format has a future. I do not think that the information should be necessarily free. Don't kill the stainless goose. Lets have our bolts and whack them in, too. If freedom campers are going to shit in the bushes, they should at least wipe their arse with pages from the guide they just bought. At least then we can afford to do something about it.

Greg