North island guide book?
20 December 2009 - 8:47pm
Hi I was thinking about writing a guide book similar to the south island's rock deluxe, for the north island. I know there's local area guide books but was wondering how many people would be interested a guide book that covers crags over the whole north island? Any feedback will help and if it turns out to be a worthwhile thing then i'll get onto taking photos, climbing climbs and arrangeing a book.
- Login or register to post comments
Printer-friendly version
21 December 2009 - 2:32pm
#2
Well some the information is free on freeclimb.co.nz (which is an awesome website)
But I guess if your really keen, then you could add photo-topo's and some other area's that aren't on that website.
Your not really gonna make much money so could be easier to start re-do'ing the freeclimb guides into photo format and then submit them one by one.
21 December 2009 - 3:09pm
#3
There is definitely room for something along the "select" lines of Rock deLuxe or the more complete but out of date CNI Rock Guidebook.
Watch this space...
21 December 2009 - 4:22pm
#4
hmm maybe. I think the freeclimb way is a better way to go (and requires way less effort).
Watch this space...
anything you want to share with us Cragrat....?
22 December 2009 - 2:26am
#5
Yeah I agree, you aren't going to make any money off a guidebook to start with.. so why not add to freeclimb? There are plently of crags out there that have been lost since CNI went out of stock/publishing.
Even 'The Bay' could use a new guide....
23 December 2009 - 3:33am
#6
only problem with freeclimb, is getting cliff to update the dam website!
the biggest issue (cos its not a problem) with the NI climbing guides is the development is so prolific that you write a guide and a month later its completly out of date... this is why im a big fan of the tagging system used at 'kewa!
23 December 2009 - 6:21am
#7
Well that might not be too much of an issue if a RD style Guide is produced as it is a "select" Guide surely?
The other thing is that a on line thing like Freeclimb does not produce income - South Island Rock and Canterbury Rock put a lot of money into bolting in Canterbury for example
23 December 2009 - 10:13am
#8
comments Limburger?
27 December 2009 - 10:12am
#9
Ooooh! I'll jump in on this one!!! Cliff Ellery is the man... but he is but A man. He can not keep up with all the new stuff going up and it is quite a mission for one guy to redue all the existing guide info (CNI, the Bay, Welly Rock etc). I support the idea of a rock delux style guide, though I recon it will be a full time job for a year or so if it is to be done right. RD sells because of road trippers who want a tour guide in a book. It covers the best stuff and gives info as to where to get more info on each area. Despite what folks may say... they sell. NZ is an international climbing destination and being able to buy 2 guides and have enough beta to climb for a year with out getting on a line twice would be great.
Oh... and if you leave out Mangaokewa I'll hunt you down and roast your bones over a fire!
3 January 2010 - 9:41pm
#10
I'm happy to put together a free online colour photo topo guide. Will be a work in progress due to the development but if the topos look sexy then more people will come. Please email me any stuff - quality photos too. Thanks
3 January 2010 - 11:46pm
#11
Do you mean to Kewa?
4 January 2010 - 12:27am
#12
I said this on the Kewa thread as well....... why not see if NZAC can manage freeclimb? It is already a great site with heaps of good photos and guides. I'd recon all it needs is someone who can actually update the routes/ areas in a timely fasion. Cliff does a great job, but he is only one man. With all of the NZ climbing sites that have come and gone (or just stagnated), I'd say try to focus energy on one existing on-line guide and make it work rather than adding yet another one to the mix.
4 January 2010 - 7:49am
#13
Hang on... Brainwave.
This website used to have a crag database, now that wasn't amazingly sucsessful, but what if it was reinstated in way of an online guide. I mean all the data/topos are out there floating around on the interweb already. Surely it would just be a matter of consolidating the existing guides and getting to a server/website that sees a more regular servicing.
I'm still not sure kewa is quite ready for a 'flash new guide' because it is still very much in development stage, Ivan's xmas new-routing frenzy is testament to this. Personally I'd wait another year or so before putting in a really big effort with a kewa guide, just to let development settle down a bit.
Ok so maybe not the most ground-breaking brainwave...
5 January 2010 - 12:10am
#14
Ryan's google doc guide is pretty flash. Nice pics and pretty up to date. All it really wants is to have a few topos added and it would be choice.
14 January 2010 - 10:01am
#15
A flash version of something like the Red River Gorge's online guidebook would be great--standardised grades, up-to-date safety info, new routes can be added directly by the FA...
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuide/
It's an ugly design, I know, but it's nearly as old as mojo was. Anyone got time and IT skills?
2 May 2010 - 11:30am
#16
A flash version of something like the Red River Gorge's online guidebook would be great--standardised grades, up-to-date safety info, new routes can be added directly by the FA...
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuide/
It's an ugly design, I know, but it's nearly as old as mojo was. Anyone got time and IT skills?
I actually meant something more like this:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv...
It looks like Wolverine Publishing has gone and done it again. I can't even imagine the man hours that went into producing that piece of software.
3 May 2010 - 5:33pm
#17
And since the time of this posting, they have radically redesigned and improved their site and the way users contribute. For example, take a look at this listing--it's pretty good:
24 January 2010 - 4:11pm
#18
Surely you don't all think that web based guide books are the way of the future, If they were then why would there be a south island deluxe reprint in the making? With printing a whole book you can easily carry it around to the crag and the paper in the guide book lasts a whole heap longer than normal A4 printing paper. But to fill you in on my plans anyway I started and then decided it takes to much of the fun out of climbing if you go to a crag and are only there to sample every climb and write up about it. So I wont be the one writing it but I will encourage anyone who is keen to make one.
24 January 2010 - 8:00pm
#19
Interesting - both print and online have their place. For new, small, developing places online is great as its easy to do, hence someone will pick up the gauntlet/make one and they can easily be updated.
However they are unwieldy and a pain if they are more than a few pages long and poor resolution. 72 dpi online vs 300dpi for print, that’s 4 times better. Online can't compete for quality and enjoyment of reading but they perfect for new/small and rapidly changing crags.
I hope someone will be keen to do a Deluxe style guide book (where one or two people climb/collect all the info rather than compile it from different sources) for the North Island - but wait I hear a rumor...
25 January 2010 - 3:16am
#20
I am of the opinion that the two are seperate entities. I own every guide for the North Island and probably half of the SI.... even though I have never been to most of the areas. (I think most climbers are guide junkies at heart.) When I go to a new area (for me), I check if there is an on-line guide for the area and either bring it along with me or just make notes in my hard printed version. For locals, developers and "once and a while" climbers an up-to-date on-line version of a guide is invaluable. For the adventurers who want to climb it all OR thye dreamers who love flipping through pages full of topos, pretty pictures and history about areas... a hard print guide is where its at. What is wrong with having both? Hell, having the on-line version makes research for the print version that much easier because typically, as I've said, they are kept fairly up to date.
25 January 2010 - 10:39pm
#21
I can imagine a time when climbers will carry around a small portable device like an i-phone to access information and topos for the routes they want to climb. I am sure that is probably happening already - no paper, no printing and no retailers. Also, online guides could have the advantage of sorting out just the grades a person wants to climb or sorting out just the crag for the day or even the topo and description for a single multi-pitch climb. Surely, the entire climbing community could cost benefit from such a system. I agree that online guides will not completely replace print guidebooks. There is intrinsic value to books.
I believe the trick is to develop a system where the proceeds from the sale of the information goes back to those groups or individuals with a vested interest in their respective areas. If there are going to be guidebooks with a national format, either select or complete, there should be a system for distributing sales revenue back into the various areas. I have no problems with paying a guidebook editor to do the work or with paying for distribution or other expenses. But, the profits should go back into the climbing community.
26 January 2010 - 6:20am
#22
There are no profits! Rock deluxe brief summery...
Time to complete = one year full-time for two people sometimes working up to 60 hours per week.
Trip and equipment costs $13,000
Printing $22,000
Income after expenses $35,000 each (but that’s after being out of pocket for two years and then having that income dribble in over 5 years). Not many would work for that kind of deal.
Basically if you want a good accurate guide book either online or print it takes time and therefore not much income or you can do a quick job and use heaps of people to summit information but then the guide will suck - heaps of errors, inconsistent format but it can be cheap to make. I've just been using the new Wanaka guide book and half of the bolt numbers and route lengths are wrong and even a bunch of the topo lines are wrong - the topo lines for toad hall are ALL wrong. I’m not hassling the editor as it’s too much work to do for one person if it’s a volunteer effort.
Basically you get what you pay for.
27 January 2010 - 10:45am
#23
There are no profits! Rock deluxe brief summery...
Time to complete = one year full-time for two people sometimes working up to 60 hours per week.
Trip and equipment costs $13,000
Printing $22,000
Income after expenses $35,000 each (but that’s after being out of pocket for two years and then having that income dribble in over 5 years). Not many would work for that kind of deal.
How much of that time was spent climbing?
27 January 2010 - 8:23am
#24
Your comment reads more like a personal attack than a constructive argument. Nothing bites quite so deep as to have a paid expert in the field slam amateurs volunteering on behalf of the community. It is a shame you are not active in the WRCC; you will have picked up on the so-called errors that a dozen or more other experienced climbers missed or found insignificant. It must be tough to be perfect and I am sure all of your guides are error free.
Don’t get me wrong Rock Deluxe is a fine book and to be fully transparent, WRCC did benefit from its publication as well as South Island Rock. But, in hindsight, it feels quite unsatisfactory to have climbers roll into town, supplement their information with a free read of the WRCC guide in the shops, free camp and shit in the bushes with little or no contribution towards the local climbing resource. We cannot paint all travelling climbers with the same brush, but there is plenty of evidence and dwindling coffers to support our findings.
Getting back to the main topic, the real advantage of a good online subscription format is that once it is put together and relatively free of errors, it is mostly done. Once done, it should not require significant expense. It requires only ongoing maintenance expense for updates and new additions. And, from a print friendly online format, it should be straightforward to then publish books as required. This subject goes beyond current personalities. This subject is about setting up a guidebook system, which might help fund maintenance and development for future generations of climbers.
27 January 2010 - 8:45am
#25
I think that SELECT guides are good for the travel market as these people won't buy 10 different guides, but they need to check access, and camping info more carefully as it has caused problems. Here in Queenstown access to Queenstown hill has been lost and other land owners are unhappy with the camping/ and resulting shit on their land after people wrote "seems OK to camp" on what is private farm land and attracted a lot of campers.
I also feel sorry for the local guide if their information is copied and profits removed from the area. In theory people say they don't copy but I have seen mistakes from one guidebook in another which would be very obvious if you climbed it like pitch grades reversed 21,19 is in book as 19, 21 so you think oh man the next pitch is going to be super hard and then it's really easy.
I believe SELECT rather than covering the whole area is much fairer so that anyone spending a bit of time in the area will buy the local guide in addition.
3 February 2010 - 7:24pm
#26
i have to say i like area guides when i go to the area alot and do enjoy them wanaka rock is great. When it comes to going all over the place its just great to have a general guide book like rock deluxe or south island rock is just so handy as i can travel to a few diffrent crags around diffrent areas
17 February 2010 - 1:22pm
#27
here's a few thoughts, in no particular order:
is selling guidebooks the best way to fund crag maintenance & development? I'm not sure, & if Ivan's figures are right (& I don't doubt them) then the answer seems to be "no". we're talking money for bolts, anchors, ensuring safety, covering liability & preventing potential death, injury & disfigurement, plus toilets, stiles paths, etc. trying to do all that by selling a bunch of photocopied pages just seems wrong to me.
when some visiting american dies cos a crappy old bolt shears, is it going to be an excuse to say well, it was like that cos they were too tight to pay for our overpriced guidebook?
sorry, that's not very constructive. i don't know what the answer is. maybe it's about getting wider community support (visting climbers benefit the local economy, so are there community trusts etc that'd help fund this stuff?) or expanding the NZAC bolting fund & seeking corporate & other donors?
point is, the number one reason for a guidebook is to provide accurate information. everything else falls into the 'nice to have' category.
Sally's comment about errors being repeated through copying other guides is a good one, but I don't think the answer is pleading with people not to "pilfer" other guides. the information is out there and the most important thing is to make sure it is correct.
i think enough people will always want printed guides to make them worthwhile (even if not profitable... though there's nothing wrong with profits, if they materialise, going back to local crags), but once again the most important thing is ensuring the content is accuate & up to date. money from a guide should go *first* into ensuring accuracy rather than funding bolting programmes/projects, IMHO, just as Kate & Ivan did with RDL.
Jon Hunt & I have been talking about building a web-based climb/crag database. the idea is that it'd be reasonably open access to contribute & also that climbers can contribute their own opinions on grades, quality, descriptions etc. (along the lines of, say, bleau.info) I think it's the best chance (other than paying Ivan to drive around the country & check) for getting accuracy. it should also, I hope, make it much easier to produce print guides based on this user-contributed information (with a print guide you are really paying for quality reproduction, topos, inspiring action shots, local/editorial knowledge, good design and information organisation/presentation and convenient packaging.)
so, for example, *if* information about Wanaka crags were online, WRCC could take it and use it as the basis for a kick arse guide to the local crags. boulderdash, you credit RDI & SRI with benefitting WRCC – but how much better would it be if WRCC also had access to a climber-built & run fact checking system?
free online access also means it's possible to avoid the whole "subscription" thing, which I think would just turn into a huge headache to collect minimal revenue that everyone would avoid by sharing logins, etc
we've started scoping out ideas around organising the data, and it'd be really good to have a few crags as, um, real world guinea pigs so we can work through potential problems in the data structure & presentation. let me know if you're interested
and like mnatti said, this ain't a thing that one person can feasibly do on their own. it's gotta be a community-run & supported project.
really keen to hear what people think...!!
rich
18 February 2010 - 12:14am
#28
Nice Rich. I dig it. My only "if" is that "if" you really want to move foreward with an on-line guide, try to revamp one of the existing NZ climbing sites if possible. Like I said in an earlier post.... there are already too many NZ climb sites and why add another one when an old one can just be fixed up. As far as all the current guides sources on line, freeclimb is the best (in my opinion) but again, it could be worlds better if more folks could post to it in a "real time" way.
18 February 2010 - 6:18am
#29
like some of the climbing wiki's I have seen?
18 February 2010 - 9:48am
#30
@mnatti: agree, freeclimb is currently the best, but we have the technology to do much cooler stuff... also that another site is not necessarily necessary
@cragrat: yes, kinda. we need to think about how that'd work. you have examples to share?
18 February 2010 - 10:01am
#31
I used to but a computer operator error made me lose lots of bookmarks
18 February 2010 - 11:53am
#32
18 February 2010 - 8:32pm
#33
Contrary to some of the discussion, the purpose of a guidebook is to make money. The economic contribution then allows for the public to benefit from the information.
Yes, a guide should be as accurate as possible. Otherwise, people will not want to buy it. But, I doubt there is guide book in existence that does not have some factual errors. That is why most guides have information disclaimers. Is it really that big a deal if there are a few minor mistakes? Who really cares?
WRCC makes significant money from guide book proceeds. Guide sales are the main source of club revenue. Thank goodness for guide sales. It has allowed our little club to accomplish a heap of good work. Without guide book proceeds, I believe the Wanaka climbing resource would be far less developed and far less quality. Don't be confused, guide book revenue is hugely important for WRCC! It is one reason we are very concerned about professional guide book writers poaching on our patch for personal gain. We have always protected our interest in the area and nothing will change that fact. We want the money to go back into the local resource, simple as that.
Actually, I am very surprised more groups in the NZ climbing community have not followed our model of creating an incorporated society to benefit the local climbing community. Maybe they have and I just don't know it. I think Queenstown is on to it. It seems like Golden Bay would be on to it. Dunedin should be on to it. Isn't Christchurch on to it? What about the North island communities? Go figure.
No offence intended, WRCC does not have to grovel to the Alpine club or the Rotary bunch and certainly not to the rock loving Masons. It certainly may be possible to generate funds from fraternal organizations, pokie machines, trust organizations, etc. but there are all type of criteria clubs must meet in order to qualify. Generally speaking, that spells hassle. It is reasonably easy to make a good quality guide, sell it through retailers and collect the money.
I do agree that some type of online format has a future. I do not think that the information should be necessarily free. Don't kill the stainless goose. Lets have our bolts and whack them in, too. If freedom campers are going to shit in the bushes, they should at least wipe their arse with pages from the guide they just bought. At least then we can afford to do something about it.
Greg
19 February 2010 - 8:41am
#34
Is it really that big a deal if there are a few minor mistakes? Who really cares?
Um, probably you should, as a guidebook publisher – at least so that they can be corrected in future editions. And that's a big benefit, I think, of having information online: errors can & will be picked up and be corrected more quickly.
WRCC makes significant money from guide book proceeds. Guide sales are the main source of club revenue. Thank goodness for guide sales. It has allowed our little club to accomplish a heap of good work.
It's a business model that works for you, so great, no argument from me.
What I'm talking about is a database of information, *not* guidebooks. The information in it could be used to create guidebooks, as well as potentially all kinds of other things like personal ticklists, to do lists, rankings, all that nerdy stuff that climbers obsess over.
I do not think that the information should be necessarily free.
No one has copyright on the raw information. You can't stop anyone else from using it & publishing it how they want. The ownership value in a guide is in how well you present the information – ie typeset & printed & bound for ease of use.
You said that RDL & SIR actually benefitted rather than hurt Wanaka climbing. I think that a web-based information resource would do the same, as you'd be able to use the information in it (including contributions from many different climbers) as a basis to produce a printed guidebook much more easily and efficiently than you can now.
19 February 2010 - 9:57am
#35
RUBBISH!!! The purpose of a guide (book or on-line) is to get info to the masses. The NI hasn't seen any real printed guides in ages... most of the new developing up North is going on-line in either blogs, google-docs type formats or freeclimb. If the WRCC can make a guide book work for $$$... fine. If development is as well funded as you say, though, than the guide book is outdated the day it goes to press.
The Taupo Climbing Club (still in it's infacy) has been looking into funding crag development through pokies and other availible community grants. This idea has been employed by the Rotovegas crew to support comps (both setting up locally and traveling with the group). Some of the recent CNI development has been helped by the NZAC bolt fund (Mangaokewa) but all the other development around the CNI has been out of pocket... for the love of the sport. I'm sure the gude book money is helpful.... but the NI crew seems way more concerned with keeping info current and expanding/ exploring areas on a much more "patron of the arts" sort of way.
I guess its like I've said before... I think folks will always buy the guide books regardless of whether the info is on-line as well. I think that is even truer if the guide is put out by a local club for a local area andd the profits are stated to go directly towards crag development. I suppose it is like a written receipt- "I helped fund the Wanaka Climbing scene," that makes me a good person. When I was last in Wanaka, however, tyhe club was in between guides and I feel I missed out on a lot of cool new routes because there was no version to compare with, or at least an on-line supplimental.
2 May 2010 - 1:22pm
#36
I just caught up on this thread. I think NZ rock climbing is in good hands with you guys... I loved the passion coming out. What I think we need is unity. Seems a lot of "individuals" are filling the "online void" when it comes to climbing information in NZ. One man bands are great, but they are not a fountain of unlimited resource. I get frustrated with "errors" in Rock Deluxe a little as well, but I'd be the first to shake Ivan's hand because his work and dedication and I use his book every weekend!
I think Rock Climbing is booming, and print can not and will not be able to keep up - but I think it's still neccessary. Printed media in the way of books, is on a decline. I think online is the way to go, but it would first require some unification of all these individuals doing a great job filling the current void. I think probably the only group who can do that is the NZAC committee. You guys are passionate about this enough to put a few things aside and nail this project for NZ Climbing.
I went to a meeting in Timaru recently where Pete Cammell spoke. Of about 20 people there 3 of us were maybe younger than 50. I feel the NZAC will die without a bit of a reformation. We need to embrace youth and rock climbing and bouldering a bit more. What better way than to make a stamp on our future by providing the best guiding resources for all of NZ. The NZAC has done this with mountaineering in the past... but I feel the club has declined over the past 10 years and we haven't kept up.
I don't have an answer for the "revenue loss" from guide books for buying bolts. But judging by the vibe here I wouldn't be surprised if you guys are passionate enough to buy your own hardware, and I suspect a lot of the bolts are coming from your own pockets. Good on you.
I work as a database programmer, and I'm passionate enough to volunteer my services to any cause to produce online crag guides if we can unify from the top.
Might I point out... as an IT Professional, doing the guide books... ie, photoshop etc is time consuming and a mistake, as much as Kester's guide books look sexy ;) To shift this burden onto all of us, the routes must be in a national database. With some clever use of CSS and some other programming, guide books shoud be "generated" NOT written. Creating guide books is a killer, and when they are done they will always be out of date. The beauty with databases as they are real time and up to date. We ALL should be responsible as moderators to keep the crag DB up to date. The guide book you print generated from a database today will be different than the one you print tomorrow...
Now there is potential revenue loss from providing free services... however as Pete Cammell pointed out... raising money through events is a boom (Banff Movie Festival etc). We need more bouldering comps. People aren't prepared to pay $100 for an NZAC membership, but charge them $10-15 to enter a bouldering comp and those hippy vans of free loading don't have a job climbers should be there in droves... er I hope... ;) Our climbing wall just filled out a few pieces of paper and got a $7500 grant for upgrades from Youth-Town? We should do this more. More often than not there money comes from gambling and is given back to the community. Companies like Meridian recently were asking to give money away to community projects? Did you email them with a plan?
There are already too many sites doing crag DB's. Most of them offshore, I think the most important step is that the NZAC jumps in here and asks for volunteers and we all create something. I think we have the resource and the know how, just think we need a bit of uniting.
</opinion>
3 May 2010 - 5:47pm
#37
I agree, Jezer--the best way to have an accurate, update guidebook is to have a framework set up to accept user submissions and updates. The set up of that, like you said, is a mammoth undertaking--particularly for one person. And that says nothing for maintenance--just ask Cliff! One bit of help might be seeing what code can be poached from http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuide/. They have radically redesigned their site since I first posted their link on here, and it's looking good. However, as Ivan said, compiling and personally fact checking (not to mention doing the layout and organising publishing) is an arduous and expensive process for an individual, as well. At least with user submitted content, that work can be spread out and the content can be better kept up to date. Considering how much NZ crag data is already out there on other sites, the problem might not be so much getting contributors, but as you said, uniting submissions under the banner of one comprehensive site. Where do we begin?
As for fundraising, the Taupo Climbing Club was formed for just that reason. Sadly, it may have lost a bit of its momentum in that area over the last couple of years. The idea was that crags were valuable resources, both for the NZ communities and for tourism, and that it made sense to invest in their development or safety&maintenance. And every pokey in the country has posted forms you can collect to apply for charitable donations.
3 May 2010 - 9:55pm
#38
The Red River Climbing Guide is amazing. It would be mint to have a similar guide for NZ rock climbing, mountaineering and bouldering. I agree that such sites will need to have a lot of collaboration and then be largely user generated and maintained. The Web 2.0 Wiki type concept.
From one perspective, it is pretty cool to have information free. For fundraising, local clubs will just need to adapt and be creative. From my investigation, sport generally falls outside the criteria for many community type grants but a conservation approach might be the ticket. Pokies give money to sport. But in my opinion, they are bad for society and the money is tainted. Published guides might still be on the table as an option for some areas.
On the other hand, it is a shame that NZ climbing can't generate funds from such a nice on-line guide concept. I know newspapers and magazines are struggling to get back to some sort of pay for content system. Once information becomes free, it is tough to change back to a pay system, but they trying hard. Time will tell. I suppose the site could solicit donations and attract paid listings, advertising, etc. without bastardizing the approach too much.
Good discussion.
3 May 2010 - 10:15pm
#39
One of the good things about an online approach is that it makes it easier for lots of people to contribute. But I think that also makes it harder to require payment.
And yes, I think published guides will be around for a while yet, and people will be happy to pay for them. In my experience, a sheet of paper you print out off a website stuggles to survive for long in the great outdoors. Books do things that online guides don't, like tolerate being stuffed into the top pocket of your pack or falling off the top of the crag, and they are slightly more water resistant.
3 May 2010 - 11:31pm
#40
Speaking for myself, I'll always be partial to buying a published book. I have hundreds of ebooks on my computers I've never bothered to read them, but the books I buy, they get read used and I appreciate them more. But that's just me. Ownership is an under rated good feeling. We need both, an up to date to the minute resource and a publication resulting from it.
Selling guidebooks was a good idea to pay for bolts... but I think we could think bigger. IE, expansion of NZAC bolting fund by larger club scale funding. I'm not suggesting we bake biscuits and go knocking on doors, you probably wouldn't like my baking... I'm more thinking, buy the bolts in bulk and all get them through the club for starters, as for raising funds... events! There are also a few practical steps to help your cause for getting grants... if your local section wants to bolt something. Start a community group and involve local kids... it's going to get more charity money, than me just being a local and asking people to support this thing I want to do - for myself. I'm not sure if the NZAC has the certificate of being a non for profit charity, but this document gets you dramatically (like 80%) cheaper software from microsoft and adobe all legit. There are ways... I guess my point is, we can't live on our old ways anymore, times have changed. There is a big shift towards events and rewards/incentives in modern marketing. We need to adapt and take a similar approach. I think a crag DB could raise money through a website... the more hits it gets... because we united and centralised the more revenue it gets (this probably wouln't be much). We could provide pay services... "NZ climbing apps/GPS co-ords" for phones or something... thinking out loud here. We can adapt. The more powerful we become the more easier it is too raise money this is why I think we need to unite.
I personally feel, a NZAC crag/alpine DB should generate a published book that can be sold yearly as an edition. That money should go back to the NZAC bolting fund to pay for the cheaper bolts purchased in bulk. I can understand some groups that have done such a great job of their guide books like Wanaka might not like this idea, but I'm not saying they should stop, just recognising a free service MAY effect them. (Ethical Consideration) I think it's a grave mistake we would make to not unify and create this free DB behemoth, on the basis of the fear of losing a bit of money for bolts. Especially when from Ivan's experience the guide books have only come out even and cost him a year of time. According to his calculations, if he didn't have to do the trips because the crag experts updated the info for the guidebook, isn't that 13k for the bolting fund, if we continued to sell as many books?
4 May 2010 - 4:27pm
#41
Ramset are giving us an EXTREMELY good deal at present ... just can't find the link.
4 May 2010 - 9:58am
#42
I think that your idea of a semi-annual publication from NZAC sounds pretty darn good (in principle, at least--I haven't much worked with the Alpine Club and don't know how effectively they operate as an organisation.) Making it transparent that content added to the online crag database would be used in producing this publication, and that profits would go into the NZAC bolting/re-bolting fund would be excellent. Thanks to the telecommunications duopoly, the iPhone et al era isn't really emergent in NZ like it is in the rest of the developed world--this will change, though. Travelling through Mexico this year, my mates all used their iPhones to do everything: find climbers' hostels, display on GoogleMaps, translate to Spanish, zoom in so that our myopic taxi driver could read it, play the directions aloud in Spanish in realtime when he still couldn't read... Soon the days of printing off paper copies of guides will be gone as well, replaced by :
[flash=640,385]http://www.youtube.com/v/iQH3ZnMksqw&hl=en_US&fs=1&[/flash]
Perhaps a percentage of the cost of downloading one of these applications can be funneled into a bolting fund, too. I suspect that the cost of setup would be high and the number of users would be low for what it would cost to download (these apps generally come cheeeeap).
When Kewa was getting bolted, the Taupo guys were able to find a sponsor for stainless steel truebolts at a Ramset supplier in Rotorua. Pooling a lot of our resources together, we placed a few bulk orders through Mnatti, then dispensed bolts from there. If the same could be done with a supplier of those tasty stainless p-bolts that NZAC so kindly got me hooked on, we'd all be set up.
4 May 2010 - 9:59am
#43
Hmm, Flash/Youtube BBC tags not enabled?
4 May 2010 - 2:24pm
#44
That video shows some real cool technology with a user friendly app. That is the future of guides, at least for those who can afford such devices along with the wireless interent that needs to go with it.
I could not make the link above work so copied the page info below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQH3ZnMksqw&feature=player_embedded#!
It appears they sell that guide as an application for i-phone. It says at the end of the video that it is available at the App store. Is that the same guide as the RRC.com? Are they connected? Someone seems to be making money!
I wonder if once the HTML code is written for a web page, is it easily converted to a portable device like the i-phone.
I want to throw out another idea for consumption. Maybe all these concepts are beyond the scope of NZAC. Maybe this project would be better organized by another club or organization with the sole focus of doing the online guides. Also, they could be charged with figuring out what money can be made and how to distribute it efficiently.
4 May 2010 - 2:39pm
#45
Woops! Not sure why the last post came up twice. I copied the disclaimer from the RRC guide below for interest:
Route details are copyright Ray Ellington, John Bronaugh, and other Red River Gorge climbers. Climbing is an inherently dangerous sport. The information in this guidebook is subject to error and should supplement never replace common sense and caution, competent guidance and instruction, and actually being outside. One should be especially cautious on matters of route length, descent type, and number of bolts (especially since such things do change occasionally).
At least one of those guys is involved with the i-phone app. It is not clear whether or not the climbing area is benefitting from this work. If the NZ climbing community were to undertake such a project, I would like to see the work benefitting the climbing community rather than a handful of tech savvy individuals.
4 May 2010 - 2:52pm
#46
Sorry to be so long winded. I have copied more information from their site which provides some detail as to their group (RRC) status:
The Red River Gorge Climbers' Coaltion is a nonprofit 501(c)3 organization dedicated to ensuring quality climbing opportunities for the recreating public by promosing responsible climbing. The historic PMRP purchase represents the RRGCC's dedication to ensure quality climbing opportunities on public and private land. The purchase and operation of the PMRP is made possible solely through private donations and volunteer efforts. Current yearly expenses included the property payment, legal fees, and maintenance are close to $30,000. All donations made in support of the RRGCC and the PMRP are tax deductible. Volunteer contributions in the form of trail work or pro-bono professional services are also welcome. Please visit rrgcc.org for more information.
4 May 2010 - 2:56pm
#47
Phone apps are high end fringe features. "The Fruit" as it were, but what is the fruit without first having the tree? It's like a straw with no drink. These type of "tip of the iceberg" features require mature and solid foundational workings. I like the idea, just think it's too far into the distance to consider when foundational steps are still being under taken. We need to walk before we can run.
4 May 2010 - 2:58pm
#48
Here I go again. I have attached the link to the Red River Gorge Climber's Coalition and I really like their concept!!! This is the type of thing we may want to do that would supersede the NZAC, WRCC, CCC, DCC, TCC and whomever else.
4 May 2010 - 3:16pm
#49
True that, Jezer. The content came from Wolverine Publishing, which had already produced the content and layout for a very high quality guidebook to the region. repost: http://www.alpinewerx.com/about.html
4 May 2010 - 4:40pm
#50
If the spelling in your posts is anything to go off then maybe you might be better off doing something other than writing a book?
-[GO TEAM ROCKHOUSE]-
The journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step